Q.Supreme Court extends ban on diesel vehicles with engines over 2000cc

[CENTER][U][B]List of Vehicles back On The Road After Lift Of Diesel Ban In The NCR Region[/B][/U][/CENTER] The Supreme Court finally lifted the ban on diesel cars over 2000cc to be sold in NCR. But,how many cars were hit by the ban in the first place (which took place 8 months ago) and are now back on sale? A total of 17 manufacturers had 56 models banned from being sold and registered in Delhi NCR. [CENTER][ATTACH=CONFIG]n16662[/ATTACH][/CENTER] There will be a 1% Green Cess that will be levied on sales on such cars. Most manufacturers are yet to officially announce a new pricing structure for the models which were hit by the ban, but fact of the matter is that the car that you have been looking at, [B]'CAN NOW BE LEGALLY PURCHASED AND REGISTERED' [/B]at a little bit of extra cost. The Ford Endeavor, Toyota Innova Crysta and the Mercedes-Benz GLC were launched during the ban enforcement which was a huge disappointment for most people. People at Mahindra reacted quick to the ban and announced a new range of 1.99-litre engines to save the XUV5OO and the Scorpio (two best seller from Mahindra). Meanwhile, the Audi Q7 was in a fix as the ban came into effect merely days after its launch in Dec 2015. Mercedes Benz was one of the manufacturers who really had it tough as all of its diesel engine options are above 2,000cc. The List below reveals the full picture. [TABLE="class: text_table_text_table_text_table_text_table"] [TR] [TD="width: 159"][B]Manufacturer[/B][/TD] [TD="width: 194"][B]Model[/B][/TD] [TD="width: 124"][B]Capacity[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Audi India[/B][/TD] [TD]A8 LWB 50 TDI, 60 TDI[/TD] [TD]2,967cc/4,134cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Q5 45 TDI[/TD] [TD]2,967cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Q7[/TD] [TD]2,967cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]BMW India [/B][/TD] [TD]5-Series 530D M Sport[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]6-Series 640D[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]7-Series 730 LD[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]X3 xDrive 30D M Sport[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]BMW X5[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]BMW X6 M Sport[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Ford India [/B][/TD] [TD]Endeavour 2.2L, 3.2L[/TD] [TD]2,198cc/ 3,198cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Force Motors India [/B][/TD] [TD]Force One[/TD] [TD]2,149cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]General Motors India[/B][/TD] [TD]Captiva[/TD] [TD]2,231cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]TrailBlazer[/TD] [TD]2,776cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Hyundai Motor India[/B][/TD] [TD]Santa Fe[/TD] [TD]2,199cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Isuzu India [/B][/TD] [TD]MU-7[/TD] [TD]2,999cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Jaguar[/B][/TD] [TD]XJ LWD Premium Luxury[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Land Rover India [/B][/TD] [TD]Discovery Sport[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Range Rover Evoque[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Range Rover Sport[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Range Rover 3.0L, 4.4L[/TD] [TD]2,993cc/4,367cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Discovery[/TD] [TD]2,993cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Mahindra[/B][/TD] [TD]Thar DI, CRDe[/TD] [TD]2,498cc/2,523cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Scorpio[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Xylo[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]XUV 500[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Bolero[/TD] [TD]2,523cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Maserati India[/B][/TD] [TD]Ghibli[/TD] [TD]2,987cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Quattroporte[/TD] [TD]2,987cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Mercedes-Benz India[/B][/TD] [TD]A-Class A 200D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]B-Class B 200D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]C-Class 200D, 250D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]CLA 200D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]E-Class E 250D, 250D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc/2,987cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]GLA 200D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]GLC 220D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]GLE 250D, 350D[/TD] [TD]2,143cc/2,987cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]GLS 350D[/TD] [TD]2,987cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]S-Class S350 D[/TD] [TD]2,987cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Mitsubishi[/B][/TD] [TD]PajeroSport[/TD] [TD]2,477cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Porsche India [/B][/TD] [TD]Macan S Diesel[/TD] [TD]2,967cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Cayenne Diesel[/TD] [TD]2,967cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Cayenne S Diesel[/TD] [TD]4,134cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Panamera Diesel[/TD] [TD]2,967cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Tata Motors[/B][/TD] [TD]Safari[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Safari Storme[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Xenon[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Aria[/TD] [TD]2,179cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Sumo Gold[/TD] [TD]2,956cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Toyota Kirloskar Motors[/B][/TD] [TD]Innova Crysta 2.4L, 2.8L[/TD] [TD]2,393cc/2,755cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Fortuner 2.5L, 3.0L[/TD] [TD]2,494cc/2,982cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Land Cruiser Prado[/TD] [TD]2,982cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]Land Cruiser[/TD] [TD]4,461cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][B]Volvo India [/B][/TD] [TD]S60 Inscription[/TD] [TD]2,400cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]S60 Cross Country Inscription[/TD] [TD]2,400cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]XC60 Inscription[/TD] [TD]2,400cc[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [TD]S80 Inscription[/TD] [TD]2,400cc[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Credits to the original maker and uploader of the list - [EMAIL="CarAndBikeTeam@auto.ndtv.com"]CarAndBikeTeam@auto.ndtv.com[/EMAIL]

I can imagine Toyota Bharat executives tearing their hair off [URL="https://www.zigwheels.com/forum/profile/6"]Roshun[/URL]. Anyway, nice tight slap on the faces of those at the NGT who passed the order in the first place. What an epic waste of time this was.

Yahoo! Sense prevails [URL="https://www.zigwheels.com/forum/profile/6"]Roshun[/URL] - a good compromise reached. The government should not stop devising a scrappage policy - owners of old cars should be given an incentive to stop using older cars and buy better, more efficient ones.

Some respite for buyers of large capacity diesel vehicles. The Supreme Court has ordered the lifting of the ban on diesel vehicles over 2000 cc in the Delhi-NCR region. This ban is being lifted provided customer pay a 1% 'green cess' on the ex-showroom price of the vehicle. The manufacturers of these diesel cars and SUVs will bear this 1% cost and the court has asked the Central Pollution Control Board to open a bank account to collect this money from the manufacturers. With that, vehicles from Mercedes, Toyota, Tata, Mahindra, Mitsubishi, BMW, Audi, Skoda and others can now go back on sale in the Delhi NCR region. I wonder what will become of Mahindra's 1.99 litre XUV500 and Scorpio though? Will the company stop making these?

[B]Update: Government asks Supreme Court to relax ban, plans scrap vehicle buy back for between Rs. 50,000 and Rs. 1 lakh each. [/B] There seemed to be a ray of hope, a silver lining on the horizon if you will, for people in the Delhi-NCR region who are planning to buy a diesel vehicle over 2000cc. On July 4, the government asked the Supreme Court to relax the ban on diesel vehicles over 2000 cc, as foreign investors in the auto sector were worried about the industry. The government said it is also planning to buy back old BS1, BS2 and BS3 vehicles that are reaching 15 years of age from 2017 onwards, for between Rs. 50,0000 and Rs. 1 lakh each, according to a report in the [URL="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/news/government-urges-supreme-court-to-relax-ban-on-diesel-vehicles-offers-to-buy-old-ones-from-2017/articleshow/53053280.cms"]Economic Times[/URL]. The government's view is that this old-vehicle buy back scheme and scrapping policy will get old vehicles off the road and [URL="https://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/1745-air-pollution-the-sad-state-of-delhi"]improve air quality in the Delhi NCR region[/URL]. However, the court did not back down from its stand. Carmakers Toyota and Mercedes Benz also offered to pay a 1% environmental cess on their cars to the government if it allowed them to sell their cars (both have many cars with diesel engines over 2000cc) in the Delhi-NCR region. However, the court opposed that saying that there is a 20% difference in the pollution levels between diesel and petrol cars and a 1% cess would mean getting away lightly. The case continues, with little respite to carmakers who have diesel models over 2000cc and to buyers who want large capacity vehicles. Even a reassurance that these BSIV vehicles are 80% less polluting than existing BS1 to BS3 diesel vehicles still plying on the roads, did not see favour with the court. Status quo continues! [USER="1304"]rajnish[/USER]

[URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/profile/6"]Roshun[/URL] I think this ban even though makes little sense, is here to stay. And car makers have slowly started to except the reality. Mahindra is one brand that has quickly adapted to it by down-sizing their engines. Hope they also provide an petrol alternative for their cars soon.

[URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/profile/21"]JijoMalayil[/URL] JLR has been quick to respond to the diesel ban. Right now, the only luxury diesel SUV you can legally buy in the NCR region is the Volvo XC90 as it comes with a 1998 cc diesel engine, putting it comfortably under the 2-litre ruling. Mercedes also recently launched the GLC in petrol as well as diesel, although most of the company's SUV offerings are primarily diesel. The company will likely introduce petrol engines on the other GL models also now, as the NCR market is nearly 10-15% of total sales.

Land Rover has launched the petrol variant of Discovery Sport in India at 56.5 lakh rupees (ex-showroom, Delhi). This can be seen in the backdrop of recent plus 2000cc diesel ban being implemented in various states. [IMG]http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/filedata/fetch?filedataid=5921&type=medium[/IMG] The petrol engine on offer is a 2.0-litre turbocharged four-cylinder unit producing 177 kW (237.27 hp) and 340 Nm of torque. This mated to 9-speed automatic transmission, and is only avaialble in the lower HSE trim. While the diesel gets a HSE luxury trim level.

Relevant News: [URL="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kochi/Kerala-HC-Stays-NGT-ban-on-diesel-vehicles-older-than-10-years/articleshow/52687722.cms"]Kerala HC Stays NGT ban on diesel vehicles older than 10 years[/URL] The court heard counsels of SIAM, KSRTC, Nippon Toyota (dealer of Toyota) & private bus owners' association, besides counsel of LEAF (Lawyers Environmental Awareness Forum). [QUOTE]Senior counsel Jaju Babu, who represented the Toyota dealer, had argued that the NGT's order of May 23rd was passed without hearing the parties who would be affected.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]KSRTC's counsel PC Chacko had argued that in addition to violation of principles of natural justice, the NGT's order will affect the corporation and thousands of people as those living in the outskirts are relying on KSRTC's services to the city to pursue their livelihoods.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On the other hand, private bus owners' association had contended that NGT's order goes against a provision in Motor Vehicles Act that allows private bus operators a breathing time of two years when a substantive change is brought about by an authority. When it was decided to phase out registered before 1990, the SC had upheld the provision for granting a breathing time of two years, the counsel had said.[/QUOTE] The stay will continue till disposal of petitions against the NGT order.

What remains to be seen if the NGT will appeal against the High Court’s stay order at the Supreme Court. The NGT had imposed a similar ban in Delhi which was effective from January 2016. The environmental watchdog is gearing up to extend the ban to 11 more cities in India.

Kerala High Court has stayed the NGT verdict of banning diesel vehicles more than 10 years in 6 cities across Kerala. This comes after the earlier High Court's stay of the NGT's above 2000cc new diesel vehicle registration. What is wrong with the Kerala High Court? This verdict come on the appeal filed by KSRTC, the state transport corporation, which was forced to withdraw close to 4000 odd buses, courtesy the ten year old diesel ban.

[USER="6"]Roshun[/USER] You are most welcome! :) According to these figures the advantage from scrapping private vehicles is barely negligible. The govt. & courts need to focus their energies on heavy vehicles a lot more. btw I found one more great article: [url]http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/autologue/impact-of-bharat-stage-vi-norms-on-indian-auto-auto-component-industry/1543[/url] It deals with implications of BS VI norms on Indian Auto Industry. Hope you like it! :)

That is a fairly large amount of reading material for me! Thanks [USER="1304"]rajnish[/USER] . The US uses diesel mainly for long haul trucks. Most passenger vehicles are petrol run, including SUVs and luxury sedans. But Europe went fairly aggressively diesel in the last decade owing to the power and fuel efficiency that diesels offer. However, they are now clamping down hard on diesel emissions. Paris wanted to rid the city of diesel cars. But Euro VI norms, implemented end 2013, early 2014 were meant to take care of that. Unfortunately, since the "testing" is done in a particular matter and involves "driving cycles" companies such as VW (and also a couple of others) figured ways to cheat on these tests. So while the Euro VI norms are in place, very few OEMs actually made an effort to meet them fully. I think it's time we came down hard on emission norms in India too. I like this comparison that's there in the concept paper link you shared. It puts the pollution equivalents in perspective, and should definitely be shown to the NGT that has banned new BSIV vehicles over 2000 cc, but continues to allow old ones to run (except for 6 cities in Kerala). [ATTACH=CONFIG]n11820[/ATTACH]

Continued from previous post... Meanwhile, the Ministry of Road Transport and Highways has released it's concept paper regarding the Voluntary Vehicle Fleet Modernisation (V-VMP) policy. The concept paper can be downloaded by clicking [URL="http://morth.nic.in/showfile.asp?lid=2144"]here.[/URL] [QUOTE]Voluntary Vehicle Fleet Modernization Plan (V-VMP) for vehicles bought on or before 31st March 2005 is proposed. The total potential vehicles to be replaced with this definition are 28 million. To ensure that the resultant impact is beneficial to the environment, the replacement vehicle needs to be BS IV compliant, which is going to be rolled out nation-wide by April 2017. The vehicle owners shredding their old vehicle will get monetary incentives to buy a new vehicle in three forms to aid adoption of this program: (1) scrap value from old vehicle, (2) automobile manufacturers' special discount and (3) partial excise duty exemption.[/QUOTE] The concept paper is only 12 pages long, so worth going through. P.S.: Apologies for long post. :)

[USER="6"]Roshun[/USER] thanks for your informative post. I have been wondering how other countries are dealing with the problem. I found that South Korea is the second largest market for diesel vehicles in Asia. There also there is a public discourse happening about diesel emissions. Here is a brief Reuters article on the same: [url]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south-korea-emissions-idUSKCN0YP0EF[/url] [QUOTE]South Korea on Friday said it will introduce real-world emissions tests of diesel vehicles from 2017 and unveiled ambitious new targets for eco-friendly vehicle sales, as Asia's second-biggest diesel car market tries to tackle air pollution.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]By 2019, it would scrap old diesel vehicles which were launched before 2005. It would also phase out diesel-powered buses and replace them with cleaner buses which run on compressed natural gas, or CNG.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Last month, South Korea found some diesel vehicles emitted up to 21 times more nitrogen oxides on the roads than at laboratories in tests conducted in the wake of Volkswagen's emissions-test cheating scandal.[/QUOTE] Now, diesel is big in Europe. Here is a good article that is really worth reading to get the overall picture of diesel in Europe: [url]http://www.vox.com/2015/10/15/9541789/volkswagen-europe-diesel-pollution[/url] So Europe is also grappling with the same issue. In America the picture is different. Taxes on petrol are less than on diesel. Also the pollution norms favour petrol. Useful link: [url]http://longtailpipe.com/2015/10/02/differences-in-us-and-eu-emissions-standard-key-cause-of-dieselgate/[/url] [QUOTE]European regulators are focused on fuel efficiency to limit the dependency on crude oil from Russia and the Middle East, and on greenhouse gas emissions to combat climate change. On the other hand, American regulators are focused on smog and health impacts of air pollution.[/QUOTE] US has largely avoided the smog problems of Europe. I think it is good that this debate on vehicular emissions is happening because it will lead to some action from governments and vehicle manufacturers. Catalytic converters & Particulate filters will increase cost of Diesel vehicles. We have to be willing to pay more for cleaner emissions. Continued in Next Post...

[URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/profile/6"]Roshun[/URL] According to a TOI report, a study conducted by Council of Scientific and Indiustrial Research (CSIR) has concluded that even the CNG powered vehicles are harmful. These CNG vehicles emit harmful nanocarbon particles which is carcinogenic. CSIR, with the aid of Alberta University, Canada, developed a device to analyse the emission of nano particles. The study was conducted by using a sample size of a small batch of CNG busses in Delhi. The device was attached to the exhaust of these buses and the results were concluded. "Natural gas is supposed to be a clean fuel when used in internal combustion engines, right? But, I don't think people realize that what you see (smoke) is perhaps better than what you don't see (no smoke from CNG vehicles)," said CSIR's director general Dr MO Garg during his address at the Global Green Energy Conclave held here in Delhi. "These nanoparticles are rich in polynuclear aromatic, having huge surface area. They are also carcinogenic. I have been telling government that we need to look at this situation more seriously," he said. I wonder if the government took any action regarding this finding.

[QUOTE=rajnish;n11707]Mercedes India MD Roland Folger has said that in order to address long term pollution concerns, India will have to go back to Diesel. [url]http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/diesel-tech-is-way-forward-mercedes-benz-india-md/articleshow/52563773.cms[/url] Previously Mercedes has said that it's vehicles can be run on 100% bio-diesel. [url]http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/mercedes-benz-to-proposes-to-use-bio-diesel-for-its-cars/52010387[/url] [/QUOTE] I don't want to play the devil's advocate here, but I do agree with Roland Folger. Some years ago, when I used to run CarToq, I had done some research on the pollution levels of petrol vs diesel. This was in 2011, when this whole debate about global warming was underway. That time, it was not about particulate matter. The villain at that point was "Carbon-di-oxide" the greenhouse gas causing widespread climate change. I pulled up data from various studies and found some that clearly compared emissions from equal displacement petrol and diesel engines. For the example, I used the 1.2 litre diesel and 1.2 litre petrol engines that the then Skoda Fabia used to come with - both are Euro IV compliant engines. Here's the data I pulled up: [QUOTE] [h=2][B]Diesel and petrol emissions per kilometer[/B][/h] [TABLE="border: 0, cellpadding: 0, cellspacing: 0, width: 756, height: 20"] [TR] [TD="width: 175"] [/TD] [TD="width: 168"][B]Petrol engine (1.2 L)[/B][/TD] [TD="width: 165"][B]Diesel engine (1.2L)[/B][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 175"]Carbon monoxide (CO)[/TD] [TD="width: 168"]42 units[/TD] [TD="width: 165"]2 units[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 175"]Carbon dioxide (CO2)[/TD] [TD="width: 168"]100 units[/TD] [TD="width: 165"]85 units[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 175"]Hydrocarbons (HC)[/TD] [TD="width: 168"]19 units[/TD] [TD="width: 165"]3 units[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 175"]Nitrous oxides (NOx)[/TD] [TD="width: 168"]23 units[/TD] [TD="width: 165"]31 units[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 175"]Particulate matter (ppm)[/TD] [TD="width: 168"]Trace[/TD] [TD="width: 165"]100 units[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="width: 175"]Fuel Efficiency[/TD] [TD="width: 168"]15 kmpl[/TD] [TD="width: 165"]19 kmpl[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [COLOR=#444444][FONT=Source Sans Pro][SIZE=20px]Source: Automobile Association, Industry Data[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE] From the data you can clearly see that Euro IV diesels are definitely dirtier than petrol when it comes to particulate matter emissions. So moving to Euro V or Euro VI will definitely solve that issue as a combination of ultra-low sulphur diesel, diesel particulate filters and Ad-Blue/Urea catalytic treatment would clean up particulate matter and NOx emissions considerably. That's exactly the argument that Mr. Folger is also putting forth. However, if we get back to the climate change debate - then petrol is the villain. Look at the carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide emissions from petrol! Carbon monoxide as we know is a silent killer - you can't even detect its presence in air, and it binds with haemoglobin in the bloodstream faster than oxygen, which in a confined space can be lethal. Secondly, with equal capacity diesel and petrol engines, diesels are about 25% more fuel efficient. Which means, for a given distance one would use 25% less fuel and consequently about 25% less pollution per car. It's not directly proportionate, but you do get the idea.

Mercedes India MD Roland Folger has said that in order to address long term pollution concerns, India will have to go back to Diesel. [QUOTE]"Long-term we have to go back to diesel to address pollution concerns. At the [URL="http://m.economictimes.com/topic/BS-VI"] BS VI [/URL] level particulate emissions for both petrol and diesel are similar. But CO2 emission in petrol is higher. Given the commitments India has made in Paris, diesel technology is the way forward ", said Roland Folger, managing director, Mercedes Benz India Limited (MBIL). Faster upgradation to higher emission norms would be more beneficial in allaying concerns over environment. Folger informed, "We are ready to bring in BS VI vehicles even in 2018 if fuel is available. We are not saying that BS VI standards should be advanced but an upgradation to higher emission norms can be a solution to this critical issue."[/QUOTE] [url]http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/diesel-tech-is-way-forward-mercedes-benz-india-md/articleshow/52563773.cms[/url] Previously Mercedes has said that it's vehicles can be run on 100% bio-diesel. [url]http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/mercedes-benz-to-proposes-to-use-bio-diesel-for-its-cars/52010387[/url]

[QUOTE=rajnish;n11572]Meanwhile ET Auto takes an exhaustive look at the Auto Industry in India, in light of the diesel ban, & new upcoming emission & safety norms. An excellent read, albeit a bit long: [url]http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/the-future-of-diesel-in-india/52547358[/url] [/QUOTE] The writing on the wall is pretty clear. Diesels in their current form will go. Companies have to start investing in BS 6 ready vehicles right away, while the government and public sector oil giants need to invest in BS 6 ready fuel for these vehicles. That's going to be the only saving grace in this. Although the proposed ban in 11 more cities has been temporarily stayed, it will come through eventually. But I'm not sure what the fate of vehicles over 2000 cc is going to be, as that argument (0.13% of vehicles in Delhi are above 2000 cc) just does not stand.

Meanwhile ET Auto takes an exhaustive look at the Auto Industry in India, in light of the diesel ban, & new upcoming emission & safety norms. An excellent read, albeit a bit long: [url]http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/the-future-of-diesel-in-india/52547358[/url]

Yesterday there was an editorial in our local English daily, The Tribune, called: Diesel is Dirty. [url]http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/editorials/diesel-is-dirty/244810.html[/url] [QUOTE] [h=1]Diesel is dirty[/h] [COLOR=#555]Govt has failed to make a scientific case against the ban[/COLOR] Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has breathtakingly dubbed as ‘senseless’ and 'without any scientific basis' some of the decisions of the Supreme Court and the NGT regarding the ban on private diesel cars above a certain capacity. As Defence Minister, Parrikar has no locus standi in the matter. But it must be presumed he would know that all of Europe is coming around to the view that was also expressed by the apex court in March - diesel is a dirtier fuel than petrol. The debate is over. It is revealing that it is the Ministry of Heavy Industry that has moved the NGT against the ban, not the Health or Environment Ministry. If the government were able to see a little beyond the immediate, it would see the writing on the wall. Globally, the trend is unmistakably clear. It is only a matter of time and a few cycles of debate before private cars with diesel engines go off the roads. The auto industry can either invest more in the technology and be forced to abandon it later, or cut its losses right now. On behalf of the government, Finance Minister Jaitley has remarked that the “Indian auto sector is extremely comfortably placed”, and would not be shaken by the ban. Listening to the alarmist auto or petroleum sector has done no good for any country ever, including the US. A significant part of the responsibility for today's pollution problem, or the petro-wars racking the Middle East, may justifiably be placed at this noxious industry's door. The Supreme Court is due to hear the matter in detail when it reconvenes after its current vacation. Taking any dramatic stands till then is not warranted, including on the NGT’s part. Meanwhile, would the government also care to bring to the table data on the health cost, i.e., if it has done any such study? [/QUOTE] I can't help feeling a bit dismayed.

Someone in the cabinet makes sense at last. Three cheers for Mahesh Sharma everyone. Mahesh Sharma for PM anyone? [USER="40"]Praveen[/USER] yes this whole business of banning diesel vehicles will lead to a lot of people losing their jobs right down from the factories of manufacturers and suppliers to the officials in the dealerships. But some manufacturers are working on a strategy to keep attrition rates low. Check this [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/topics/general-discussion/indian-auto-trends/7331-supreme-court-extends-ban-on-diesel-vehicles-with-engines-over-2000cc?p=11318#post11318"]out[/URL].

This is a never ending discussion now. We are just looking at proceedings, how things fair out. We're all agreed on the point of emissions getting priority not the age/fuel type. Here's a snapshot of pollution data from Telangana govt website. Ban the diesels with higher capacity like idiots now, and see nothing getting changed. But there's no point discussing. I just hope at least one sane person points this out to NGT and they stop this rubbish of banning they have been doing.

What I don't understand is, all these bans can also cause unemployment, right? The manufacturers who are severely affected may have to shut shops/ relocate their bases, right? Moreover, it also affects the people whose livelihood depends on diesel vehicles. In an article by [URL="http://www.dnaindia.com/locality/gautam-buddha-nagar/noida-transporters-insist-ngt-ban-will-increase-unemployment-union-min-agrees-calling-it-extreme-58886"]DNA[/URL], Union minister Mahesh Sharma said, “Banning all the vehicles that are older than 10 years will cause a huge loss to our transporter brothers. Ban vehicles that are unfit, even if they are five years old, and bring strict guidelines and measures while issuing fitness certificates to the vehicles.” He's got a point. Banning things may be a temporary solution, but banning things indefinitely will have deep rooted consequences.

[USER="6"]Roshun[/USER] like I've told you before, I still think Maruti has got a lot to do with everything that's been happening in the automotive sector since the beginning of time. I strongly feel they are hand in glove with the government over every decision the latter has made since the Rajiv Gandhi era. Be it the introduction of the sub-4 metre category or the recent ban on diesel vehicles. Will it be libellous if I say it here :p

[QUOTE=NikilSJ;n11424]He mentioned Suzuki specifically as he is currently in Japan and has a meeting scheduled with Osamu Suzuki, chairman of Suzuki Motor, who is also the biggest Japanese investor in the automobile sector in the country. Doesn’t he know the facts here. Maruti Suzuki has no diesel engines above 2000cc. Instead, he should have been addressing concerns aired by homegrown manufacturers like Tata and Mahindra. Luxury car maker Mercedes-Benz is another manufacturer that has been deeply affected by the ban. They were the best among the three German luxury brands in the country in terms of sales. But now it looks like they will lose out to either Audi or BMW, one of which who has sold more than a million polluting cars(we all know who!) across the globe.[/QUOTE] Suzuki is the company least affected by this ban. In fact, Maruti Suzuki stands to gain the most from this ban on diesel engines above 2000 cc, like you've mentioned. Those who would have been considering large capacity diesels, would be forced to look at vehicles with smaller engines - and that's where Maruti scores. Look at the Maruti Ertiga for instance, not only is it a small capacity diesel, but it also has SHVS (mild hybrid) capability in it, benefiting from the government's FAME incentives for hybrid and electric vehicles. Those who can't buy an Innova or a Xylo will be looking for other seven seater options - and the Ertiga, Lodgy & Mobilio are obvious choices. Maruti being the largest player in terms of network has the advantage here. Companies such as Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have all made significant investments in India and will now have trouble getting returns on them. Mahindra & Tata will have to change their vehicle roll out strategy - Mahindra has already adapted with the 1997 cc Scorpio and XUV, and its plan of new petrol engines, but Tata has so far not reacted.

Finance minister Arun Jaitley recently said that the ban on diesel cars imposed by the Supreme Court will be done in a phased manner and that the Indian passenger car market is large enough to make any dent on the affected auto manufacturers. Jaitley was quoted by [URL="http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/sc-diesel-ban-is-a-transient-phase-says-arun-jaitley/52501559"]ET Auto[/URL] as saying,[QUOTE] “I think the Indian auto sector is extremely comfortably placed. This is all transient phase which happens and I don’t think that with the kind of large market that Suzuki has, it is in any way likely to be adversely affected.”[/QUOTE] He mentioned Suzuki specifically as he is currently in Japan and has a meeting scheduled with Osamu Suzuki, chairman of Suzuki Motor, who is also the biggest Japanese investor in the automobile sector in the country. Doesn’t he know the facts here. Maruti Suzuki has no diesel engines above 2000cc. Instead, he should have been addressing concerns aired by homegrown manufacturers like Tata and Mahindra. Luxury car maker Mercedes-Benz is another manufacturer that has been deeply affected by the ban. They were the best among the three German luxury brands in the country in terms of sales. But now it looks like they will lose out to either Audi or BMW, one of which who has sold more than a million polluting cars(we all know who!) across the globe.

Meanwhile, in today's proceedings, the NGT has given 3 weeks time to the states to produce relevant pollution data before it. The next hearing is on July 11 or 12. The bench has clarified that there will be no blanket ban on diesel vehicles before next hearing. Source: [url]http://indiatoday.intoday.in/auto/story/ngt-gives-further-three-weeks-time-to-states-to-provide-information-on-vehicle-pollution-levels/1/681550.html[/url]

There is news that Toyota is developing a 2.7 Litre Petrol engine for the Innova Crysta. The Innova Crysta with petrol engine is expected to launch around Diwali. Source: [URL="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/auto/miscellaneous/Toyota-to-launch-petrol-variant-of-Innova-Crysta-around-Diwali/articleshow/52500336.cms"]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...w/52500336.cms[/URL]

Pawan Goenka, executive director of Mahindra & Mahindra, has confirmed that the Scorpio and XUV500 will get a [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/topics/car-and-bike-research/upcoming-cars-and-bikes/11361-mahindra-scorpio-xuv-to-get-petrol-engine-this-year"]petrol option[/URL] within this year. They have also[URL="http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/mm-to-invest-rs-1000-crore-for-developing-petrol-engines/51115807"] invested Rs 1,000 crore[/URL] to co-develop a brand new series of petrol engines with SsangYong Motors. Mahindra has been quick on its feet since day one of the ban, while Tata, as always, has [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/7812-tata-to-develop-sub-2-liter-engine"]been late to the show[/URL].

Post the ban on diesel vehicles with engine capacity of 2-litres and above,some manufacturers are budgeting financial support for its dealers in Delhi and its satellite cities, says this report from [URL="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/news/industry/automobile-companies-like-toyota-motor-mercedes-budgeting-financial-support-for-diesel-ban-hit-dealers-staff/articleshow/52474108.cms"]ET Auto[/URL]. Companies like Toyota and Mercedes-Benz are woking on strategies to keep the impact of the ban to a minimum. Post the ban, the companies have claimed that the attrition rate at dealerships are at an all-time high. Hence, these manufacturers are working on setting up a subsistence package which may include financial assistance for payment of salaries to employees at dealerships on a case-by-case basis. Toyota Kirloskar has 10 outlets in the National Capital Region and used to contribute 14% to the company’s overall sales in the Indian market. Now with a similar ban on diesel vehicles in Kerala looming large, the situation looks pretty grim. It is high time the NGT takes all these matters into consideration before making a stupid and idiotic rule like this. [QUOTE] "We haven't cut down on our staff strength in Delhi NCR dealerships. Lot of their roles have been diversified, but there has been no cut in jobs ", said Roland Folger, managing director at Mercedes-Benz India . "We have to wait and see what the next verdict holds for us," he added. - Source: ET Auto [/QUOTE]

I have been tracking the news. Apparently the bench will sit again tomorrow. Orders are likely to be passed tomorrow & fate of diesel vehicles pan India is in the balance. Meanwhile, the Ministry of Heavy Industries & Public Enterprises has argued about following the pollution norms to the bench: [QUOTE] "It is stated principal that there should be a balance between environmental concern and development, therefore, any precipitate decision to ban registration of diesel engine above 2000 cc will have adverse effect on the growth of automobile industry in the country which is the highest employment provider in manufacturing sector," the plea said. The ministry said[I][B] all new four-wheeled vehicles currently manufactured and sold in cities conform to BS-IV norms[/B][/I] specified by the government, [I][B]except heavy vehicles having national permit which are on BS III norms and as such their sales and registration cannot be justifiably banned[/B][/I]. It said that any orders restricting the registration or sale of vehicles, which comply with all legal norms and standards, "would impinge on the rights of the manufacturers to carry on their business lawfully in the country". "[I][B]We would plead with the tribunal that any vehicle that meets the prevalent emission control norms may be allowed to ply on roads and its registration may not be banned[/B][/I]. Certainly, there is a case for strengthening these norms and the government has decided to implement Bharat Stage VI norms with effect from April 2020. "The fuel and automobile industries have to make substantial investments and upgrade their technology to comply with these stringent norms. The investment requirements for this transition are huge and the industry needs sufficient lead-time for investment in the new technology. [/QUOTE] Source: [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/05/30/diesel-ban-ngt_n_10204246.html[/url] I think the argument is pretty concise. Looks like it is too little too late. The bench is on a mission. Does'nt look like it is going to take heed. Tomorrow will be a dramatic day.

Like I said earlier, we can fight it, but we'll soon have to accept the new order of things. [QUOTE][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]The green panel directed Maharashtra , Uttar Pradesh , Bihar , Tamil Nadu , Andhra Pradesh , Punjab , West Bengal to apprise it about cities which have worst ambient air quality, total number of vehicles along with their bifurcation (diesel/petrol) and the total population in each city. [/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE] The above mentioned states are likely next on the NGT's radar, and we shall see similar recommendations to the ones in Delhi and Kerala. [QUOTE][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]"If the states fail to produce the data by tomorrow, we will issue bailable warrants against the chief secretaries of all states. You have made a joke of our orders. Be prepared to face consequences now," the bench warned. [/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE] That is a hard-hitting stand. Although, I do drive a diesel vehicle, I think we do need some stringent measures to battle pollution. If it means, giving up my older diesels (BS III), so be it, as long as my road tax is compensated. As for my newer BSIV diesel, if it meets all current norms, why can't it run? I am willing to shift by 2020 if need be, if the new norms come in. But clear the air (pun intended) on this please, so we can plan one way or another. And when it does, I do hope the NGT provides some hard facts, statistics and data to show a direct correlation between diesel vehicles over 2000 cc and pollution levels. Can it?

[USER="20"]NikilSJ[/USER] Glad you found it interesting! This Justice Swatanter Kumar is the same person who had passed the Kerala order. So scene looks pretty grim!

Wow [USER="1304"]rajnish[/USER] that's quite an interesting read. Loved the way how NGT Chairperson Justice Swatanter Kumar took the Central Pollution Control Boards case. Here is an excerpt: [QUOTE][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]The tribunal also rapped Central Pollution Control Board (CPCB) for submitting "half-baked" data on the population and vehicle density in major cities across the country. The CPCB report has indicated that ambient air quality in most of the cities was beyond permissible standards. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]"What kind of report is this? You (CPCB) have given us a half-baked data. We had asked you about vehicle density. How many vehicles are diesel and petrol? According to your report, Mumbai has a population of 11 lakhs. This is the joke of the first category. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]"Your report says Delhi has 245 vehicles per km. There are thousands of vehicles per km in the capital, what kind of report is this. Today, you can even see a Fiat car of 1960 on the road. People in Delhi still have their Maruti 800 driving around," a bench headed by NGT Chairperson Justice Swatanter Kumar said while hearing a case related to air pollution. - Source [URL="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/52505927.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst"]Economic Times [/URL][/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000][FONT=arial] [/FONT][/COLOR]

There is an NGT hearing going on right now. Orders are expected to be passed later today or by tomorrow. Here is a [URL="http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/ngt-raps-states-on-pollution-warns-of-action-against-chief-secretaries/articleshow/52505927.cms"]brief account of the proceedings[/URL]. It is worth reading!

The fall out of this ban on diesel engines over 2000cc is that some really good vehicles are not going to come to India. Toyota for instance, according to news reports, is reconsidering its plans for India. No, it won't shut down operations, but it may not introduce the products it was planning to launch. The new Toyota Fortuner for instance won't likely be launched in India now. The biggest market for the Fortuner is in the NCR region and Punjab, followed by other states. NGT is planning to implement similar bans like the ones in Kerala and NCR in other states too. Mercedes is re-looking at its cars business in India and may not put in fresh investments. The company is looking at petrol engine options too. [B]Also see: [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/10840-list-of-50-cars-banned-from-sale-on-kerala-roads-in-the-light-of-new-ngt-ban-over-2000cc"]List of 50 cars banned in Kerala[/URL][/B]

The most annoying bit of the diesel ban is that the 2.0-litre TDI diesel engine involved in the VW diesel gate scam is still being sold in the country. Eight months since the whole scam emerged, Audi India is finally going to fix the affected cars in the country. Of the 2.1 millions Audi cars across the globe that need fixing, 36,500 units are in India. Audi India’s CEO, Joe King, has said that the affected cars which are powered by the EA189 series diesel engines will receive software updates shortly. To recall, the affected engines were found to be having a cheat device installed that reduces emissions to permissible limits when attached to a test rig. In all, VW Group India last year said that 3,23,700 units would be recalled in all in the country. These include 1,98,500 Volkswagen cars and 88,7000 Skoda cars powered by the EA189 series diesel engines. The whole operation will cost the group a boat load of money. Wonder what consequences this move might have on VW Group’s plans for India.

[USER="6"]Roshun[/USER] You are right. I had linked to [URL="http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/ngt-seeks-data-on-population-vehicle-density-of-major-cities/52421589"]this news[/URL] in another thread. Basically, the NGT has asked for pollution data of several cities viz. Mumbai, Kolkata, Bangalore, Patna, Lucknow, Allahabad, Kanpur, Varanasi, Nagpur, Chennai, Hyderabad, Ludhiana, Jalandhar, Amritsar and Pune. [QUOTE] "[B]The directions passed in regard to NCT, would safely be applied for all these cities.[/B] But before we pass orders in that regard, in relation to all the major cities in the country, we would like the CPCB to place complete and comprehensive data," the bench said. The matter is now fixed for hearing on May 30.[/QUOTE] Thus it is a fire that is going to spread. There will be litigation against the NGT order, but you are right that it looks to be the new order of things.

That is only some partial relief for Kerala. I think we will have to face the reality of the situation. This order will come into force and this stay is just buying citizens some time to figure things out. It is the new order of things, and we will probably have to get used to a new scrapping policy, a new fuel policy as well. But I still maintain, that a ban on the basis of engine displacement is not right. Like I said earlier, and I think many others have, it should be on the basis of emissions and emission standards.

The Kerala High Court has stayed the NGT order banning diesel vehicles above 2000cc in Kerala. However, the ban on 10 year old vehicles remains. The partial stay is for two months. Meanwhile the Kerala state government is planning to file an appeal before the NGT. Source: [url]http://newsable.asianetnews.tv/south/high-court-stay-on-diesel-vehicle-ban[/url]

A very good look at the vehicle scrapping scene in India: [url]http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/news/industry/why-old-vehicles-need-to-be-given-a-clean-and-timely-burial-and-how/articleshow/52442076.cms[/url]

Nitin Gadkari, the Union Road Transport minister has lashed out against the diesel ban in Delhi by the Supreme Court. The ban has led to several car makers voicing concerns regarding future investments in India. "If there is no proper diagnosis how will you treat the disease? We need a comprehensive research by a good agency to find the reasons of air pollution," he said. Accepting that there is a need to employ changes in terms of diesel vehicles in India, he maintained that it can't start suddenly one morning. "It cannot be a sudden decision to ban anything. The most important thing is in Delhi for instance taxi permits have been issued till 2020. Taxi drivers have taken loans from banks. Loans are with 13 to 14 percent interest. If you shut them down how will one lakh people or drivers survive?" added Gadkari. He added that only 18 per cent of the Delhi pollution is caused by vehicles in Delhi and feels that the implementation of BS-VI standards of fuel will address the problem of pollution through diesel cars. The introduction of alternative fuels, like ethanol, bio-CNG and Li-ion batteries, will also be supported by the government.

[USER="20"]NikilSJ[/USER] Toyota somehow has not been able to capture the market it should have in India. It is the world's largest car manufacturer, and they have to best technology available. They wanted the share of the premium market, but never introduced Lexus. If Toyota took this seriously, and introduced affordable petrol hybrids soon, they could be well ahead in the game. Honda too has the technology. They even have the platform ready on which they are manufacturing hybrid cars(Atkinson cycle engines) with dual clutch transmissions already in Japan. I wish all this tech makes it to cars in India soon.

Yes, I agree with you [USER="1677"]Akshat Pokhriyal[/USER]. I think all manufacturers should introduce petrol-hybrids soon. But Toyota will have take an unassailable position in the market then. They have the technology and the resources to introduce these hybrid systems in all their cars.

Petrol hybrids make sense. And sooner or later, we're gonna run out of fuel. It's easier to convert petrol hybrids into CNG/fully electric cars later on. Petrol hybrids are more versatile, and with a turbo petrol engine, like the BMW i8, they don't compromise with efficiency or performance.

With the National Green Tribunal banning sale of [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/8659-30-green-tax-on-diesels"]diesel cars[/URL] in the National Capital Region and [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/topics/general-discussion/indian-auto-trends/10840-list-of-50-cars-banned-from-sale-on-kerala-roads-in-the-light-of-new-ngt-ban-over-2000cc"]Kerala[/URL], two of the most lucrative markets in the country, Toyota is unlikely to offer a diesel option in the next generation [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/7209-corolla-altis-facelift-to-arrive-soon"]Corolla[/URL]. Toyota, however, says they won’t be introducing a diesel option due to high costs involved in developing a successor to the 1.4-litre D4D diesel engine that meets Euro and Bharat Stage VI emission norms. Instead, they say they will introduce a petrol-hybrid variant that can offer a similar level of fuel efficiency. The recent cut in VAT (Value Added Tax) on electric and hybrid cars under FAME (Faster Adoption and Manufacturing of Hybrid and Electric Vehicles in India) may be another reason for the move. Recently, Toyota admitted that they are selling more [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/10780-toyota-slashes-camry-hybrid-prices-by-rs-2-3-lakh"]Camry Hybrids[/URL] than the regular Camry too.

[USER="12"]Arjun[/USER] This is selective judicial activism. When the public is the affected party, the judiciary just plainly ignores the challenges. And like in the case of road safety, they just endlessly wait for the Government to formulate stricter rules.

What really shocks me is the different kind of reaction to environmental issues and issues related to road safety. For many years, everyone has been talking about the high number of fatalities due to road accidents, and we just give a deadline of 2 years or 3 years to improve safety features of the cars. However, when it comes to pollution, cars are banned with one month notice, sometimes even lesser. When the government is happy to give the manufacturers years to improve on safety, for which already better technologies are available, they are not ready even to properly test emissions and doing proper studies before going ahead and bringing about new bans for reducing pollution. Like NGT, why don't we have a similar tribunal for checking on road safety?

[USER="6"]Roshun[/USER] & [USER="1677"]Akshat Pokhriyal[/USER] Agree with you guys completely. Weeding out of old vehicles based on BS stages is indeed a good idea. The esteemed judges unfortunately are practicing judicial activism rather than true justice. It is going to create socio-economic difficulties on a large scale. I am befuddled to think what sort of training the relevant judges received. Justice is not a simple black or white matter & banning vehicles overnight only displays a blinkered approach to the very very delicate matter of 'Justice'.

[QUOTE=Roshun;n10995][FONT=arial][SIZE=13px]Also this ban on vehicles over 2000 cc is unfair. These new cars are all BS4 compliant, which makes them 80% cleaner than older BS3 vehicles[/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE] On that note, for example, the Pajero Sport with 2.5L diesel engine is EU6 emission compliant. And that is banned because of the 2000cc engine size limit. It's idiotic.

[QUOTE=rajnish;n10978]I can't help feeling that the 10 year ban is against basic principles of justice. It is an order that is unfair to a lot of people. [/QUOTE] The basic issue here is that we've all paid 15 years of road tax. So is the government going to refund 5 years' worth of road tax? Secondly, the government should not have taken age of the vehicle as a criteria. Instead, it should have had a phase out policy - BS2 should be immediately banned, BS3, in another three years, after which only BS4 or BS5 vehicles can ply. That would have been fair. Also this ban on vehicles over 2000 cc is unfair. These new cars are all BS4 compliant, which makes them 80% cleaner than older BS3 vehicles. Instead, the government should have discouraged use of BS3, BS2 diesel vehicles, imposing perhaps a penalty to discourage use and then encouraging people to trade them in / scrap them for some sort of discount on newer, cleaner cars.

I can't help feeling that the 10 year ban is against basic principles of justice. It is an order that is unfair to a lot of people.

I don't really get banning of Diesels older than 10 years. An 8 year old diesel could be more polluting. Why not implement stringent emission norms? Wouldn't that make more sense rather than blindingly banning vehicles you have no information about?

[QUOTE=rajnish;n10702]News: The National Green Tribunal has banned diesel vehicles older than ten years from plying in Kerala. If after 30 days such a vehicle is found running, it will face a fine of 10,000 rupees. Source: [URL="http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/diesel-vehicles-over-10-yrs-old-banned-in-kerala-ngt/52398875"]http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes...a-ngt/52398875[/URL] [/QUOTE] This trend will catch on in other states. But one thing is unclear. When the vehicle was bought, the owner would have paid road tax for 15 years. So what happens to the remaining 5 years of tax? Will the government reimburse that?

News: The National Green Tribunal has banned diesel vehicles older than ten years from plying in Kerala. If after 30 days such a vehicle is found running, it will face a fine of 10,000 rupees. Source: [url]http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/diesel-vehicles-over-10-yrs-old-banned-in-kerala-ngt/52398875[/url]

The draft of the new scrapping policy of the NDA govt. is expected to be made public in a week or so. Due to this policy, annual turnover of the auto sector is expected to go up to 20 lakh crore in five years, from 4.5 lakh crore at present. The policy is likely to provide upto 50% rebate in excise duty on new vehicles, for buyers who scrap their old vehicles. The plan is to set up industrial clusters at several ports, which will recycle the old vehicles, and also manufacture parts at half the current market rate, due to easy availability of scrap material such as copper, steel, plastic & aluminium. This will give a great boost to the Auto sector. "India can be the no. 1 country, to export the world's best cars", Nitin Gadkari told PTI in an interview. Complete read: [url]http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/auto/news/industry/scrapping-policy-to-boost-auto-industry-turnover-to-rs-20-trillion/articleshow/52385913.cms[/url]

I think it'll be a multi-pronged strategy. On the one hand, scrap all pre-BS II vehicles. This will create a huge demand for new cars & will keep the car companies happy. Also, incentivise conversion of pre-BS-VI vehicles. This will keep the hybridisation companies happy. At the same time make BS-VI compulsary for new vehicles. Good strategy to keep everyone happy & clean up the pollution at the same time :-)

Bosch and Cummins, or other similar companies will make a fortune out of this, plus it's beneficial for us as well. But car manufacturers won't like this deal. They are putting a lot of effort on reducing emissions, and making cars safer and efficient at the same time. They hugely rely on us buying new car models rather than converting and continuing with older ones.

[USER="1677"]Akshat Pokhriyal[/USER] I think as per the information available till now, the mandatory scrapping policy would be only for pre-BS II vehicles. However, maybe voluntary scrapping would be allowed & benefits might also be extended for the same. We have to wait & watch. Also I think there will be incentives for converting an old vehicle to hybrid. However, I think there will be some trouble in re-registering a BS-II vehicle in certain cities, once current registration expires. Our forum administrator [USER="57"]Arch[/USER] had a similar experience as the Ghaziabad RTO [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/5217-tata-bolt-revotron-review"]refused to renew the registration[/URL] of his father-in-law's Indica, as it was a BS-II vehicle. And the Indica was not even diesel, it was a petrol vehicle. It may be as Ghaziabad probably falls in NCR. Not sure what the status in Hyderabad will be. Maybe you should make enquiries. :) [QUOTE]The more one digs into the facts, the more you realize how huge of a task is it going to be. Mandatory emission norms make sense. Mandatory scrapping policies don't. Car manufacturers are always going to support scrapping of old cars, but there is a conflict on interest in it. Govt and people want to reduce pollution. Manufacturers just want to sell more cars.[/QUOTE] +1 [QUOTE]Modifying old cars to help them meet new emission norms, even if possible through hybrid/electric conversion, isn't gonna be on the plates for the same big reason. Manufacturers won't support it. All their research and investment will be of no use.[/QUOTE] Actually my impression is that Bosch & Cummins have been lobbying the govt. for hybridisation of old cars. They are lobbying because they have huge profits to make. Converting each car will easily cost at least 1.5 lac rupees. So you can imagine what the amount becomes for even 5 lac vehicles. It is 7500 crores! So there is huge self interest at play & I think we will see conversion of old cars happening!

The more one digs into the facts, the more you realize how huge of a task is it going to be. Mandatory emission norms make sense. Mandatory scrapping policies don't. Car manufacturers are always going to support scrapping of old cars, but there is a conflict on interest in it. Govt and people want to reduce pollution. Manufacturers just want to sell more cars. Modifying old cars to help them meet new emission norms, even if possible through hybrid/electric conversion, isn't gonna be on the plates for the same big reason. Manufacturers won't support it. All their research and investment will be of no use. The number of passenger and commercial vehicles we have, scrapping is going to be a challenge beyond our imagination. Plus, with the amount of incentives mentioned for scrapping, I can see a lot of petitions getting started the day scrapping is made mandatory. [USER="1304"]rajnish[/USER] On a lighter note though, my car is BS-II. So, does it mean it won't be covered in scrapping policy?

[USER="11"]kaiserketkar[/USER] Certainly the no. of vehicles is huge. According to the article linked above, there are about 40 lac four-wheelers, both private & commercial, that are pre-Bharat Stage II. With two wheelers, the total no. of pre-Bharat Stage II vehicles goes up to about 1 crore. To scrap such a huge number of vehicles requires proper scrap & salvage infrastructure. Right now in India scrapping is mostly done by the unorganised sector. I think before the govt. can implement this policy, a proper scrapping infrastructure will have to be put in place. That is a big task on it's own! Edit: A good article on vehicle scrapping policy in India: [url]http://smartinvestor.business-standard.com/market/Compnews-316656-Compnewsdet-Scrap_policy_must_for_old_vehicle_ban.htm[/url] [QUOTE]The government had decided to set up 10 modern recycling centres by 2014 to deal with this problem, but the plan fizzled. [B]The large unorganised automobile dismantling sector in the country continues to take apart about 25,000 tonnes of automobile residue every year[/B], although the recovery efficiency is low. Currently there is only one centre in Chennai capable of disposing one vehicle per day. This for a country that added more than 5,000 vehicles every day last year, according to the International Organisation of Motor Vehicle Manufacturers.[/QUOTE]

If so many pre-2004 vehicles are going to be scrapped, then there also has to be an effective solution for proper management of the scrapped cars. Otherwise, we're reducing one type of pollution only to increase another. That having said, the scrapping policy with incentivisation is a good approach. It'll ensure that vehicles on the road satisfy more stringent emission norms.

[USER="1677"]Akshat Pokhriyal[/USER] Just finished digging for some more information on the scrapping policy. Actually the scrapping policy seems to be for pre-Bharat Stage II vehicles. Here is a good report on the same: [url]http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/government-may-offer-up-to-15-discount-on-new-vehicles-if-you-junk-your-old-ones/articleshow/51232451.cms[/url] [QUOTE]As per the policy, anyone voluntary scrapping his pre-Bharat stage II vehicle (older than 12 years) will get up to 15% discount (including manufacturer discount and rebate on excise duty) on new vehicles.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]"We'll be proposing a 60% rebate on excise duty to finance ministry for people going for modernisation of their fleet. A draft policy would soon be made public for comments from stakeholders," a senior government official said.[/QUOTE] So the discount will be manufacturer discount, as well as discount on excise duty. But still I don't think it will add up to more than what you have estimated. My Getz I think is a Bharat Stage III vehicle, so not eligible :-) That's what I can make out at this early stage. The article also says that the policy will be mandatory. [QUOTE]Earlier, the policy was only being made for commercial vehicles but now it will cover passenger vehicles as well since it will be mandatory.[/QUOTE] Also, after some digging around I learned that auto companies have been lobbying for a scrapping policy for old vehicles from before 1996! Naturally as their sales will increase by a healthy percentage!

[QUOTE=rajnish;n9866][USER="1677"]Akshat Pokhriyal[/USER] I am interested in the scrapping policy :-) If by scrapping one can get a good discount on a new car, I'd definitely be interested. My Getz is already 10+ years old. Another two years, & it would qualify for the govt. policy! [/QUOTE] I totally get that, but as far as I think, discount is going to be only on the road tax. That too, even if it is 50%, doesn't count for much. Even in Bangalore, on a 10lakh rupees car, 50% discount on road tax means around 70k. That's all you get after scrapping your car. Plus, it makes it difficult to bargain more discount out of the dealer. The scrapping scheme isn't very attractive to me personally. Most of the middle/lower middle class people in our country aren't gonna be impressed with some discount on road tax alone. Converting an old car into electric, if cost effective, could be a bigger solution in my eyes. But time will tell how it fairs out.

[USER="1677"]Akshat Pokhriyal[/USER] I am interested in the scrapping policy :-) If by scrapping one can get a good discount on a new car, I'd definitely be interested. My Getz is already 10+ years old. Another two years, & it would qualify for the govt. policy!

If that's true and turns out to be fairly affordable, it quite very well be a big thing after all. Converting old cars into electric could work well, and it's definitely something I am gonna go for.

Apparently, the govt. has asked Bosch & Cummins to offer retrofitting technology, to convert old Diesel Vehicles to Electric. [QUOTE] "There is an option to convert diesel vehicles into electric. We have asked technology companies to provide the solution. We'll also ask the heavy industries ministry to incentivise people going for retrofitting under its National Electric Mobility Mission," a senior government official told ET. Official of the road transport and highways ministry have also recently met senior Bosch and Cummins executives. [FONT=arial]Read more at: [URL]http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/52197449.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst[/URL][/FONT] [/QUOTE] This could be one of the technologies in question: [url]http://www.hybridcars.com/kpit-cummins-develops-innovative-bolt-hybrid-system-46020/[/url] This technology, called [URL="http://www.kpit.com/Revolo/benefits.html"]Revolvo from KPIT Cummins[/URL] can be added to any vehicle, petrol or diesel, to convert it into a hybrid vehicle. Benefits claimed include upto 30% reduction in emissions, and upto 35% improvement in fuel efficiency. Additionally, the govt. is coming out with a policy to scrap 12+ year old vehicles. Owners who scrap their vehicles will be given certificates, which will allow them to get discounts on new cars! :) Also the govt. is coming out with a Star-Rating sticker for new vehicles, based on fuel-efficiency of the cars, much like we have for AC's & Refrigerators. All this is after the govt. came under the pressure of the Supreme Court to come out with a long term policy to control vehicular emissions. :D

Quoting this Indian Express article- [I]"The Supreme Court bench was informed that the pollution level has come down in the Delhi-NCR after its directives, which included ban on fresh registration of big diesel vehicles, restricting entry of trucks in Delhi and imposition of green cess on commercial vehicles. Advocate Aparajita Singh, appearing as amicus, said that the peaks of pollution level have come down considerably after the court order. “Haryana diverted more than 4.25 lakh trucks. Over Rs 152 crore had been collected by imposing environment compensatory charges on commercial vehicles. Now we want a cess to be imposed on all diesel vehicles,” she told the bench." [/I] Pollution levels have come down, really? The only time pollution level dropped significantly(was once in the safe zone!) in Delhi was at the time of that Jat agitation. ie, Majority of the trucks entering Delhi was blocked. These trucks numbering close to 70,000, cris-crossing Delhi at night are the real culprits!

Bad news for all those waiting to pick up the new Endeavor. This might just affect Toyota's plans for the Innova Crysta launch too.

[IMG]http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/754/391/8e8.gif[/IMG] ^What I feel like reading about the reasons why this ban in place.

[QUOTE=Roshun;n7331] So what's a work around to this? Any ideas? [/QUOTE] This ban is not really solving any problems. Look at the total sales of these SUVs - they make up less than 1% of the vehicles plying on Delhi NCR roads. Manufacturers have already managed to circumvent the ban in the last three months with many vehicles being registered outside the Delhi NCR - places like Jharkhand, Uttarakhand even have much lower taxes - and hence luxury SUVs from Mercedes and Audi have found their way to these places to get registered and come back to the NCR. People who buy these SUVs have the ways and means of registering them in other states. I've seen many PB 32 / CH-01 / UK 01 registered brand new Mercs / Audis and Toyota Fortuners in the NCR region in the past couple of months. Secondly, on what basis is the ban being pushed? All these vehicles meet BSIV norms as specified in the CMVR rules and certified by ARAI, which means they can be legally sold. Unless those rules are changed, what is the argument against these vehicles? Funnily enough older vehicles - BS1, BS2, BS3 and non BS vehicles continue to chug along in the NCR region as there's nothing that has prevented them from plying. I'm sure a check on the pollution levels by these would throw up some shocking results. Why ban a clean BSIV vehicle and allow dirtier old ones to keep running??? Some serious introspection needed here.

[B]UPDATE August 12, 2016:[/B] [B][URL="https://www.zigwheels.com/forum/posts/7331-supreme-court-extends-ban-on-diesel-vehicles-with-engines-over-2000cc?post=15844"]Supreme Court has allowed the sale of SUVs with diesel engines over 2000cc in Delhi-NCR[/URL][/B] If you were hoping to buy a big SUV soon, here's some bad news - the Supreme Court has extended the ban on diesel SUVs with engines over 2-litres in capacity until the next hearing. That has really put a spanner in the works for not just automakers who were hoping to sell their vehicles in a pretty lucrative market like the Delhi NCR region, but it has also dashed the hopes of those who were waiting for new SUVs - like the new Ford Endeavour for instance. (Hey, [USER="1051"]mailsarkar[/USER] you are going to have to hang in there a little longer! :() The Court had banned large capacity diesel SUVs in Delhi, citing the [URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/topics/global-auto-news/trending-worldwide/1745-air-pollution-the-sad-state-of-delhi/page3"]Rising Pollution in Delhi[/URL]. This ban is likely to stay in place at least until April 30, 2016. [ATTACH=CONFIG]n7332[/ATTACH] Automakers spent the last three months arguing that their diesel cars were not the main cause of pollution in Delhi, and were seeking some sort of reprieve from the court. Mahindra & Mahindra were one of the first few to manage to evade the ban by quickly[URL="http://www.zigwheels.com/forum/topics/car-and-bike-research/cars-in-india/3010-diesel-ban-mahindra-scorpio-xuv500-to-get-downsized-engine"] downsizing the engines for two of its most popular models - the Scorpio and XUV500[/URL]. The models sold in the Delhi NCR region come with 1997 cc engines (downsized versions of the 2179 cc MHawk engine), putting out exactly the same power and torque as the higher capacity motor. But others like Tata Motors, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi have been badly affected as they can't sell most of their diesel SUVs and even some of their sedans in the Delhi NCR region. [B]Here's a list of some of the SUVs that [U]can't[/U] be sold in the Delhi NCR region:[/B] Toyota Fortuner New Ford Endeavour Toyota Innova Mahindra Xylo Mahindra Thar BMW X Series Audi Q Series (some models) Mercedes GL series Tata Safari Storme Tata Xenon Tata Sumo Grande Jaguar LandRover SUVs Hyundai Santa Fe Mitsubishi Pajero Sport Mahindra Ssangyong Rexton Mahindra Bolero Chevrolet Trailblazer [B]And here's a list of those SUVs that you can buy: [/B] Volvo XC90 - the only luxury SUV with a sub-2 litre engine! Skoda Yeti - a nimble premium compact SUV with a sub-2 litre engine. Mahindra Scorpio (1997 cc) Mahindra XUV500 (1997 cc) Mahindra TUV300 Ford Ecosport Renault Duster Nissan Terrano Maruti Vitara Brezza Some manufacturers like Toyota are reportedly getting petrol engines ready for their vehicles. Toyota used to sell a petrol version of the Innova with a 2-litre petrol engine earlier and that may make a comeback. The Toyota Fortuner too may get a petrol engine soon. So what's a work around to this? Any ideas?